A perspective on the abolition of the countries of Europe and with it the rights and freedoms of a whole continent of people.
10/27/2006 09:44:00 am
A bit is, most is not.Depends where the unnoficial line ends and the east starts.Most of Turkey is above Gibraltar but closer to the middle east than the current EU.Hard question.
No it is not, not as a nation anyways, just like Israel is not Europe (that one is coming soon) Neither is the UK, we are an island. I consider Europe as a land mass and not a geo-political entity, and if you aren't on the land mass then you aren't European.
Just as turkeys don't vote for Christmas, you can be sure as hell that Christians ain't going to vote for Turkey. The French, Dutch and Austrians are particularly anti.No, they will never accede to the EU. Lucky, lucky bastards.
I don't follow shotgun's logic.How is the UK in the West?It depends from where you are standing.From New York, we are in the East.Europe is not a land mass. But is if you want it to be.So Europe stretches from the west coast of ireland to the (far east?) of Russia.The black sea is a natural barrier to turkey but the irish sea is not to Ireland? And taly is ok due to a chain of mountains?If shotgun wants to be pedantic, then he will have to consider the channel tunnel.The EU is in the eye of the beholder and only its combined membership can allow membership.The same as any exclusive club I know.Is Turkey European? Good question.Gary
A question I ask myself on a near daily basis. Last year, Giscard d'Estaing flatly asserted that Turkey simply is not a European country. "[Turkey's] capital is not in Europe," he declared, "and 95 percent of its population is outside Europe. [It has] a different culture, a different approach, and a different way of life. It is not a European country."Much of that is true for Cyprus....Through much of European history, Europe defined itself against "the Turk", the Arabs and Islam. For the EU to cross the Bosphorus is already to cross a rubicon. I suspect that the EU member states will be unable to cross that rubicon. The negative position of so many Europeans towards Turkish accession makes membership a risky political option for many governments- from Vienna to Copenhagen, from Athens to Berlin.As I have pointed out on my own blog, something to take note of is the growing Turkish anger against the EU-never-ending EU demands have caused mass anger among the Turkish public. Pro-EU politicians have been exhausted by trying to handle the accession process. The EU has been demanding without contributing anything to Turkey. Turkey is going off the EU fast....On the plus side, as Giscard has commented Turkish membership would "be the end of the EU"....
No Turkey is not European... it is a secular Muslim state and the vast majority of their population is openly hostile to Western views and culture.Their human rights record is dreadful and the countries bordering it are some of the most unstable in the world.
"Is Turkey European?"The answer depends on the criteria employed for defining European.(a) geographical(b) cultural(c) religiousTurkey doesn't seem to fall into any of these categories. Or is there an important category not listed, yet?
No, the Turkey is native to North America and.... oh wait slight misunderstanding.Europe itself is not really a physical continent, it is merely a large peninsular of the Eurasian landmass, as is Anatolia. Therefore the reason we can make any distinction between Europe and the rest of the old world is based on culture. If Anatolia were still populated by Greeks we would certainly regard it as 'European'. Turkey is either a very europeanised Middle Eastern country or a very Middle Eastern European country.
Gary Elsby stoke-on-trent said... I don't follow shotgun's logic. How is the UK in the West? It depends from where you are standing. From New York, we are in the East. Europe is not a land mass. But is if you want it to be. So Europe stretches from the west coast of ireland to the (far east?) of Russia. The black sea is a natural barrier to turkey but the irish sea is not to Ireland? And taly is ok due to a chain of mountains? If shotgun wants to be pedantic, then he will have to consider the channel tunnel. The EU is in the eye of the beholder and only its combined membership can allow membership. The same as any exclusive club I know. Is Turkey European? Good question. Gary 10/27/2006 03:49:07 PM No I don't have to consider the chunnel, and no, I am not being pedantic.The main argument of europhiles is that the UK is part of Europe anyway so we might as well be in the club that is Europe too and we are Europeans whether we like it or not.Well that isn't the case and we should take any opportunity to weaken the arguments of europhiles.
Colin said... "Is Turkey European?" The answer depends on the criteria employed for defining European. (a) geographical (b) cultural (c) religious Turkey doesn't seem to fall into any of these categories. Or is there an important category not listed, yet? 10/27/2006 11:51:02 PM Give the unelected, failed politician full, overpaid quango that runs our lives fron Brussels time and they will come up with one.
Ross has made some very good points and they must be considered.Parts of North africa are much closer to accepted European land mass than England or Ireland.An argument could stretch across the wholle of N. africa if geography was the only criteria.If istanbultory os correct that 95% of turks are out, then by definition that puts Turkey in the EU. You can't be a litle bit pregnant, can you?As far as I can see, there is more of a case for in than out, but it isn't altogether down to position, it is mainly down to acceptability and fulfilling the definition of membership.This is therefore quite simple. Do you fulfil requirements for membership? It seems not.Gary
" If Anatolia were still populated by Greeks we would certainly regard it as 'European'."Excellent point!"they will come up with one."Highly probable.
Turkey is an Islamic nation. Islam colours every facet of Turkish society and culture.Regardless of Turkey's loyal support of NATO and the cold war, it remains Islamic and frankly anti-christian. As recently as 1860 Turks threatened the survival of christian Europe. Even more recently (1918) the Ottoman empire carried out a genocidal elimination of christian Armeniansof around 1.5 millions.At present they deny the Armenian genocide, and continue to persecute christians, as do every middle eastern muslim country.Europe is shaped in every respect by two thousand years of christianity, even if practising christians are a vanishing people. To Turks Islam is life itself, and Mohammad is the only prophet of god and the only interpreter of god's will and voice, which makes discussion a non-starter. The irrefutable evidence that Mohammad was a slaver, killer, pedophile,and preacher of race hatred means nothing to his well conditioned followers, no matter how well documenteed these characteristics are in the Koran (which was dictated to Mohammed by god) .Turkey is a large country and would be bound in every respect to support the demands of the growing hostile and resentful muslim communities in Germany, France Holland and Britain.Keep them out. France sees this clearly, and Austria where the last Turkish Invasion of Europe was stopped, also sees the danger. The Blair government, blind in this as in so much else foolishly supports the Turkish danger.
'A slaver, killer,and preacher of racial hatred'. For a minute I thought you were talking of Victorian Britain, but then I notice 'Empirical'and class persecution and transportation missing. My mistake.The EU isn't a white Christian club but it will play a significant part by intimidators and those too weak to stand up to it.Gary
My name is David Mizrahi C. Macias.I am a half-Mexican half-Turkish who grew up in Mexico and who is currently living in Turkey. My oppinion is that Turkey is not ready for the EU as the EU is not ready for Turkey. Everyday, I see every kind of people in the streets. I hear their complaints their opinions their discusions etc. I see very modern people with a very European point of view, but as you go to the East, you see that ideas start to change. A change which occurs because the lack of education. Shortly, what I want to say is that if there still exist people who believe in certain stuff blindly and unquestionably and if there still exist people who think women have no rights, if people still don't know what a condom is and if there still exists families with 10 to 20 children and 5 wives in one household no matter how many modern people with European points of view there are, no matter how much freedom this country has, sadly I think it doesn't belong to the EU until certain developments and achievements are done.Oh, by the way the only problem existing here in Turkey in base of freedom is that the freedom of speech is not as in the European Countries. I think this must also be solved if Turkey really wants to enter the EU. I think that Turkey needs at least 50 years to reach the required level. Notice that I'm not talking about the major cities because those already have the required, I'm talking about 60% of Anatolia.Apart from that, I have never seen an anti-christian or anti-jewish situation. I myself having a christian mother and a jewish father am happy to say that noone tried to persecute me or my family as some anonymous friend said; even though everyone knows our religions. It is true that there exist people or groups who dislike non-Muslims but this is because these groups and people are supported either by radical Islam political parties or by radical Islam terrorists. Political and Economical situations in Turkey are much more complex than they seem to be.Now, my opinion about the so called Armenian Genocide: The Armenians in Eastern Anatolia were trying to form their own nation and to do this they started to kill Turkish (Ottoman) residents. To prevent violence, the government that time decided to move them to other location. In the process of relocation Armenians died because of public attacks, tough weather conditions, starvation and illness. Since that government didn't do anything like killing them in camps, ovens or killing them in masses with an order of the government, I believe that is not a genocide. It is true that millions of Armenians died but not because of special efforts of a government. If the Armenians weren't relocated, then possibly most, maybe all of the Ottomans living in that region would be killed by the Armenians. In my opinion, the cause of the happenings were their acts.I know that I went a little bit off topic, but I felt the necessity of expressing myself. Thank you.David Mizrahi C. Macias.
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